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Post by nybuild1 on Sept 9, 2013 8:30:47 GMT -5
Yeah NYbuild you go ahead and vote "YES" and you will be the first one bitching about it 5-7 years from now. This is no deal you dont give back all the stuff they have listed and defer money that the county already owes you over another 3 years. Try putting your money in the bank then going to the bank and take it out only to be told that they are only going to give you 90 percent of it back over a 3 year period. I have young kids, a mortgage, bills, need work done to my home, took money out of my 457k etc. I am not independently wealthy but I want it to be resolved too. Give me ALL the money that is owed to me and be glad I am not adding interest to it, then we can talk about after 2015 Its more like deferring it for a little over 2 years and yes I definitely feel your pain. But there in is the problem. In 2015 how do you negotiate a deal under the control of NIFA? Now you have a bunch of new cops with their own financial interests. In 2015 who's to say we get screwed and have to start paying 5% into medical...now what? Don't you see how big this 2020 extension is? I'm not willing to turn that down to get it now only to lose it later. Doesn't make sense.
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Post by mastershake on Sept 9, 2013 9:08:06 GMT -5
If the union was so sure we were going to prevail in this appeal then why would they put this deal on the table? Everyone who is on this board saying a decision is coming down any day and it will be in our favor, I'd sure like to know where you are getting this info, IS MISS CLEO back in business We have the County over a barrel right now, this is the time to strike! This deal would get everyone except the 2013 class to top pay and we don't have to worry about healthcare until 2020 or another freeze until 2018, that is HUGE! Like I said in an earlier post, what do we do when this current contract runs out in 2015? Win or lose this lawsuit the County no longer has the Sword of Damocles hanging over it's head? What is going to bring them to the table before the end of 2015? You think they aren't coming for our healthcare benefits then? If we do prevail in the appeal, the win would be based on the failure of NIFA to file the proper paperwork, not on the constitutionality of violating our contract. That is a mistake that can be corrected by NIFA and another freeze would surely be on the horizon. Depending on the timing of the freeze there would still be a small group still stuck in the steps. Another consideration is our retro, who's to say the court wouldn't order our retro be payed upon separation? The court has no obligation to expedite our retro. Does anyone know what happened in Buffalo? I did some digging online and found very little recent info.
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jp2765
Participating Member
Posts: 27
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Post by jp2765 on Sept 9, 2013 9:55:37 GMT -5
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Post by tensevencop on Sept 9, 2013 10:49:29 GMT -5
Again my arguement is..what if a year from now the county says oops sorry we don't have your retro money for january 2015, we need to renegotiate. What will the pba do then? Will they make yet another deal and open up our contract for the 3rd time? Once you set the precedent that you are willing to open a contract, they will keep coming back time and time again looking for more. Eventually down the road when most of you here are gone, there will be nothing to give back. I dont trust the county paying us our retro 2-3 years from now. They are not our friends.
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Post by mastershake on Sept 9, 2013 11:13:05 GMT -5
Again my arguement is..what if a year from now the county says oops sorry we don't have your retro money for january 2015, we need to renegotiate. What will the pba do then? Will they make yet another deal and open up our contract for the 3rd time? Once you set the precedent that you are willing to open a contract, they will keep coming back time and time again looking for more. Eventually down the road when most of you here are gone, there will be nothing to give back. I dont trust the county paying us our retro 2-3 years from now. They are not our friends. See the above regarding Buffalo, what if the court orders NO RETRO?
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Post by tensevencop on Sept 9, 2013 11:17:32 GMT -5
Correct me if iam wrong but didnt buffalo lose the lawsuit? And buffalo did everything including raising taxes and they were still in the hole. NASSAU IS NOT BUFFALO. If the county felt that we werent going to be ordered retro, why would they even make a deal? You people posting on here in the Pba just need to stop this non sens
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Post by tiredofwaiting on Sept 9, 2013 12:10:40 GMT -5
yes Buffalo lost their lawsuit. We won. As far as medical benefits being touched. There has not been one recent contract that was signed in the last year that has touched any ones medical benefits except the benefits of the unborn. That does suck but at least they know up front what they are getting themselves into. The county has come back to us every year since the new original contract was signed. You are foolish to think they will no use the retro money as bargaining power down the road saying they need more for us. The PBA should be ashamed of making this deal with a scumbag like mangano. Remember mangano created this mess when he cut the home energy tax and the tax increase that was in place to make sure this problem didn't happen. I don't want to hear Nassau county residents don't want there taxes raised. Every year 98% of school budgets get passed with a tax increase and the residents vote for it. Let the lawsuit play out and when it comes time tell Manclowno: fvck YOU PAY ME! Vote No. I am a 1%er with over 20 years of police experience not at top pay and getting absolutely no retro.
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Post by tensevencop on Sept 9, 2013 12:37:22 GMT -5
Its so funny and ironic that all of a sudden we get these new members on here that are all of a sudden pushing a deal? So which of you are Tobin, Paterson etc?
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zzzz
Full Member
Posts: 222
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Post by zzzz on Sept 9, 2013 12:43:10 GMT -5
Well I,ve been reading the posts from both sides. Both for and against this "deal". Both sides make very valid points. I guess either way we vote there is uncertainty. If we wait for a decision from the appeal we can get "1" step if ruled in our favor AND either "1" year retro/ back pay or wait for back pay because county can't pay ( like assessments). Then wait for courts to rule on year 2 then 3 of other lawsuits. In that time if we win the first lawsuit, NIFA refiles the PROPER paperwork and refreezes correctly. ( however year 2,3 lawsuit would still be in effect even if NIFA files correctly). SO bottom line with waiting is we have 3 lawsuits with only the first being any day.
If we vote "yes" on the deal we give up some stuff and reopen a contract that was negotiated already with givebacks. Well I totally understand the posts here because we have given and given already. However, we need to consider a few things... 1) the county's ability to pay 2) making us whole (top pay) 3) hiring new cops.
So the top priority here is to get paid. ( in my opinion healthcare is as important). This deal is worked out to give the County FUTURE savings it needs to go forward. They need to hire desperately. Guys here want to retire also. So lets remember the last negotiation when we gave back how much we can make in our pensions. ( remember ? ) along with a lot of other crap... OT as straight time, equipment checks, holidays, pay lag, DPA's...separating 4%'s to 1%'s. etc etc.... We gave back and NEVER got paid. Remember asshole Peter Schmitt? So NIFA steps in at the County's request and freezes us. This is the county's ability to pay. We get screwed. Looking at this "deal' there is wording in it that is very different from the other contracts. This wording is SPECIFICALLY for both the County AND NIFA. At least until 2018. We'd win a slam dunk in court if they didn't honor it this time because of the wording. Again it LOCKS in healthcare until dec 31 2020. Gives us raises until 2017. ALL previous raises 3.5, 3.5,3.75. ( not half) it's counted as half because its July not January. ALL back pay / retro starting soon because July 2013 HAS PASSED. Puts pretty much everybody at top pay ( no animosity) anymore. We don't lose anything. Holidays and uniform are deferred NOT LOST. We lose 2 vacation spots and 1 moa day per pct and tour. I hate that too. However, it's not like we can't mutual. 50 civilian spots. I figure cops will still manage to be inside. Some guys will never work a car anymore
Now the County with this deal can hire new people. QUALIFIED people... Not bottom of the barrel and it will maybe put movement back to this job and fill in the special units that has been lost.... Maybe.
So that's it guys. Everybody will vote soon enough. Just remember yes we are reopening again but I feel with the correct wording in this contract it would be pretty hard for the county not to honor this in a court of law..... I'm voting "yes" with some sacrifice and hopefully finally getting paid.... If the vote is no and we wait for the appeal...I pray for a positive decision and I'll get top pay also but probably WON'T see back pay/ retro for a very very long time
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Post by tensevencop on Sept 9, 2013 12:51:26 GMT -5
Zzzz u brought up good points but again lets say the county doesn't honor their end of the bargain? Yes with the wording its a slam dunk but whose to say that we will get an injunction on that? That could again be a 3 year lawsuit in the making. No lawsuits are ever quick. And the fact that we waited 2 1/2 years already and can just about touch the finish line is crazy to give that up at this point. We will prevail in the lawsuit. We can still make a deal after that and that puts us again more in the drivers seat. From what I've heard, Once we win the first lawsuit, all the other lawsuits fill fall in suit and will be thrown out quickly. There is no waiting on a ruling for each of them because its the same legal argument for all of them. All that is required is the lawyers fill out some paperwork and wait till the judge signs off on it. And whose to say Mangano will even win this re election, We could maybe get an even better deal with Suozzi. We are making a deal with someone who might not be here a few months from now.
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Post by tiredofwaiting on Sept 9, 2013 13:02:44 GMT -5
ZZZ, you need to be a little more informed. County assessment were never involved in a court case. If and when they take the county to court and win they will be forced to bond and pay the results of the lawsuit. PBA scared tactics will county be able to pay. General property taxes have not been raised in 10 years. Manganos side kick Walker already said they will bond the retro when we win. What you fail to mention in rationalization is you are also taking 6 months of zeros every year for 2013, 2014 and 2015. All of our raises in the current contract are scheduled for January 1 in each year. You are also taking a full year of zeros in 2016. Your 2016 raise comes 12/31/16(last day of year) and 2017 is 6/1/2017 another 6 months of zeros add all of this on top of what we have given back in the contract negotiations and the extension and it really sucks. What make you think this is the last of the give backs if this gets ratified but I don not see it making it past legislature or nifa even if the membership foolishly passes this. This is a grandstand for Mangano to go to the public before the election and say I got the unions to concede and give back when they already had a signed contract. County has a proven track record of not honoring what they sign. Do not think for one minute they will not hold your retro checks hostage or even the new hires when it is time to pay. Read the whole agreement over and over again and you will realize how bad it is. Make sure you make an informed decision! Vote NO
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Post by mastershake on Sept 9, 2013 13:06:01 GMT -5
yes Buffalo lost their lawsuit. We won. As far as medical benefits being touched. There has not been one recent contract that was signed in the last year that has touched any ones medical benefits except the benefits of the unborn. That does suck but at least they know up front what they are getting themselves into. The county has come back to us every year since the new original contract was signed. You are foolish to think they will no use the retro money as bargaining power down the road saying they need more for us. The PBA should be ashamed of making this deal with a scumbag like mangano. Remember mangano created this mess when he cut the home energy tax and the tax increase that was in place to make sure this problem didn't happen. I don't want to hear Nassau county residents don't want there taxes raised. Every year 98% of school budgets get passed with a tax increase and the residents vote for it. Let the lawsuit play out and when it comes time tell Manclowno: fvck YOU PAY ME! Vote No. I am a 1%er with over 20 years of police experience not at top pay and getting absolutely no retro. The PBA should not be ashamed, they put a deal in front of its membership and if you are not happy with it then vote no as you stipulated you would. No one knows what will happen with this lawsuit, even if we win it is uncertain what the terms of our repayment will be, or even if we will be afforded retro. Our lawsuit only addresses the freeze that was imposed by NIFA, it does not protect us from the county coming to us year after year and asking for concessions INCLUDING OUR RETRO pay, if awarded. Regardless of what we do now. Our victory will be short lived if NIFA comes back and re-freezes us. Our lawsuit does not protect us from that, this contract if accepted would. 2015 is a short time away, how much bargaining power would we have if our salaries are frozen? I'm sure it would be great to be negotiating our next contract and handling a wage freeze lawsuit simultaneously. If you think that the County government will re-neg on the deal and not pay us our reto, etc... that is covered in our agreement then what makes you think it will abide by the decision of the court? Vote No. I am a 1%er with over 20 years of police experience not at top pay and getting absolutely no retro.<---------- What do you mean you are getting no retro? I love the Fvck you pay me nonsense, save it for the locker room or the bar, this isn't a pissing contest, its our livelihood, use your brain not your balls! There has not been one recent contract that has been signed in the last year that has touched anyone's medical benefits except the unborn. <------------- What are you talking about, what contracts have been signed by the County in the last year? Where are you talking about? Suffolk, NYC the country? Where? Who besides us, doesn't already pay into their healthcare? Explain please?
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Post by reelrampage35 on Sept 9, 2013 13:06:36 GMT -5
If we win the lawsuit the judges DO NOT have to consider the counties ability to pay, this was already discussed at an open meeting and the PBA and the lawyers agreed on this. The County will have to beg borrow steal or bond the money. Also what is happening to all the FEMA money that the county was or is going to be given to pay for OUR costs during the storm, and whatever else the county scams. You better believe the PBA board is lurking on here under certain names, they will have all the answers for you this afternoon and this evening even thou they are just going to tell you what you want to hear. VOTE NO
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zzzz
Full Member
Posts: 222
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Post by zzzz on Sept 9, 2013 13:06:59 GMT -5
Yup tenseven that is true but that's the magic word... We'd have to "wait" for a judge. Everything in the courts is SLOW moving. Except injunctions. Also if we win the county won't pay quickly AND hire cops that's for sure. If we win and then deal we'd still have givebacks because county will just say we can't pay sorry we have millions in deficits. You think the public hates us now? Wait until they see us collecting from the lawsuit and the county executive saying the cops are draining us into bankruptcy. Both ways we vote is a gamble. We'd never know what would've happened the other way..... I'm just taking the more sure thing at this point. I could be wrong too but at least I'll have healthcare
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Post by mastershake on Sept 9, 2013 13:29:14 GMT -5
Its so funny and ironic that all of a sudden we get these new members on here that are all of a sudden pushing a deal? So which of you are Tobin, Paterson etc? It might be funny but no its not ironic . It could be board members in disguise OR it could be that this issue is SO IMPORTANT that new members signed up so they could get in on the discussion? What do you think?
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